Curse

Stoneys Rock · Jun 13, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

Easy easy way to fix this.

Make the "skill balances" ONLY AFFECT PVP. IE: Some skills, maybe most.. would be two different things depending on whether it's PvP or PvE. Same with changes to armor stacking, soul reaping.. you name it. PvP and PvE are not symbiotic! Let's seperate them.

They can't exactly do that, PvE and PVP are interlinked in this game. What you learn about skills in PvE helps Johnny New Player play in PvP not by builds but with the synchronization and synergy of skills and knowledge of mechanics, if you exclude one from the other and more changes like this would follow so you might as well have two separate games because a lot of the skills and some mechanics will be completely different as guild wars evolves.

Mad King Corn · Jun 13, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Anet needs to realize that the armor skills are essential to staying alive in HM and elite areas, as it is we take quite a pounding, now its gonna be much worse.
Also, nerfing the armor skills will ruin several farming builds as well. Perhaps just this one time Anet could make this nerf affect PVP only.

lyra_song · Jun 13, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

Sheesh, I wish Paragons hadn't been created. Hell, I wish NF didn't even have new classes period. This game has caused more cross-class nerfs than Factions ever did. But this one is crazy. It might have been because of PVP, but it definitely hurts PVE a whole lot more. I play both, but I understand how this absolutely would KILL a lot of creative builds (solo and party-based) if it holds up.

Anet needs to fix the problem skills and the problem CLASS (you know who you are!) and not work around the problem. If they had kept the paragons inside a vacuum where only their own shouts gave them energy, a lot of nerfs would not have happened. Shields Up, Watch Yourself, armor buffs in general... how much more does the warrior have to get nerfed because of the Paragon?

All the paragon has done is shown that players can easily abuse armor skills.

Gaile has already said that the primary attributes are being worked over. So Leadership will hopefully be adjusted properly and various skills be buffed to match.

Chthon · Jun 14, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

As I've said before elsewhere, this nerf stinks. It's another sloppy, quick-n-dirty global nerf where all that needed to be addressed was the synergy between two specific skills. It renders a huge number of skills useless, as well as several builds which were absolutely vital for high-end PvE. Garbage.

Lord Sojar · Jun 14, 2007, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonious

Not only did he forget to capitalize the t as mentioned before, but he should have used a semi-colon after class since a comma would only be useful before a conjunction. I wouldn't criticize another person's writing while you make errors in your own.....PWNage in the 3rd degree

Well pardon me... who died and made you perfect? Hmm... /ponder.

TyrianFury · Jun 14, 2007, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ari

Easy easy way to fix this.

Make the "skill balances" ONLY AFFECT PVP. IE: Some skills, maybe most.. would be two different things depending on whether it's PvP or PvE. Same with changes to armor stacking, soul reaping.. you name it. PvP and PvE are not symbiotic! Let's seperate them.

Agreed, the armour nerf is insane, I use a warrior and an ele and have used armour stack builds for nearly 2 years. Why change this so late in the games lifespan.

If you have to alter skills this badly for the sake of pvp the split pvp from pve. I mainly play pve (after all arn't Tyria, Cantha, oh and Elona continents for pve?) Thats right 90 % of the game is made for pve.

Armour stacks for needed for doa like so many other areas, the game has been hit hard by loot scaling and other changes recently, just let the game be.............

dargon · Jun 14, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

Anet needs to realize that the armor skills are essential to staying alive in HM and elite areas, as it is we take quite a pounding, now its gonna be much worse.
Also, nerfing the armor skills will ruin several farming builds as well. Perhaps just this one time Anet could make this nerf affect PVP only.

Funny, i've done the majority of my vanquishing in HM with an Assassin, no extra armor skills except occasionally physical resistance and frigid armor for Dasha Vestibule. So please tell me again just how much you really need extra armor above +25. Also don't forget that each class also has various insignia available to them that increase their armor, and are not effected by the armor buff limit.

Evilsod · Jun 14, 2007, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

Anet needs to realize that the armor skills are essential to staying alive in HM and elite areas, as it is we take quite a pounding, now its gonna be much worse.
Also, nerfing the armor skills will ruin several farming builds as well. Perhaps just this one time Anet could make this nerf affect PVP only.

Since when... i've vanquished all 3 continents, most with H/H and i've never had to rely on mass armour buffs. The only elite mission i can even recall that needs such a thing is DoA, and wow, it might actually become hard!.... well lamer.

And do you think Anet care if it affects farming builds...

Dragonious · Jun 14, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Well pardon me... who died and made you perfect? Hmm... /ponder.

Don't tell other people that their grammar skills suck when you can't even account for your own....I'm not perfect and don't intend on being...

Curse You · Jun 14, 2007, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoneys Rock

They can't exactly do that, PvE and PVP are interlinked in this game. What you learn about skills in PvE helps Johnny New Player play in PvP not by builds but with the synchronization and synergy of skills and knowledge of mechanics, if you exclude one from the other and more changes like this would follow so you might as well have two separate games because a lot of the skills and some mechanics will be completely different as guild wars evolves.

Is this a joke? Really, PvE gets you prepared for PvP? Well, then I wonder what those Challenge Missions and Elite Missions are for. When was the last time you had a PvP match with a team of 8 against a team of 30 people?

The point is, the original idea was for PvE to lead into PvP, yes. However, they've become so far apart that there really needs to be a split between the mechanics in order for anything to work.

Here's a suggestion, take a page out of the PvE books. Make an environment effect in all PvP that causes there to be an armour bonus cap of +25. That way PvP can be balanced, without messing up PvE.

EDIT: It could be called something like "Spirit of Balthazar", similar to the environment effect in Dwayna v.s. Grenth (snowball arena).

Fox Reeveheart · Jun 14, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

thats actually a great idea cursed you. that would be a great fix to the problem.

I read this and this I am split from this.

definitely one half of me is screaming bloody murder because I love my earth ele and his armor bonus stacking.

The other wants to see warriors STOP BEING TANKS and start being melee damage dealers q.q I havent seen one in so long! Infact I don't remember warriors being used for damage on any build in a few months when concerning pve... if it was pve you tanked, nothing else. Or possibly you ran. Maybe Strength will finally be a usable attribute. Maybe more hammer warriors will start popping up.

Curse You · Jun 14, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox Reeveheart

thats actually a great idea cursed you. that would be a great fix to the problem.

I read this and this I am split from this.

definitely one half of me is screaming bloody murder because I love my earth ele and his armor bonus stacking.

The other wants to see warriors STOP BEING TANKS and start being melee damage dealers q.q I havent seen one in so long! Infact I don't remember warriors being used for damage on any build in a few months when concerning pve... if it was pve you tanked, nothing else. Or possibly you ran. Maybe Strength will finally be a usable attribute. Maybe more hammer warriors will start popping up.

Probably because they suck at damaging high level monsters. Most of the time, the things they tank would only take 10-20 damage from their attacks. Seems rather pointless to be trying to kill something with 30 damage a second, when the creature is dealing 100-200 damage to you.

Also, it's Curse You, there's no 'd

imkey · Jun 14, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

just add 1 additional armor(against physical and elemental) for every point put into Strength.

Fixes the weak strength attribute and lets warriors be the best tanks.

arcanemacabre · Jun 14, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Dude, that is an awesome idea, Curse You. In fact, I believe this is the right time for me to use my new word:

Spanpiffytasticatedness!

Lord Mendes · Jun 14, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Since I already use watch yourself + stand your ground in HM PVE, I can tell that this nerf is going to make HM missions even more harder. Yes, I'm talking about Vizunah Square.

Making it only affect PVP would be the ideal solution.

"Omg it makes PvE harder! Make it only affect PvP!" (By harder I mean you can no longer press two or three buttons which will reduce all damage by 80%).
I hate this mentality, makes me wonder why I play such a scrub friendly game.

@ imkey,
What makes strength good (or bad) isn't really the armor penetration, but the awesome skills in the attribute. I can see how strength can be weaker in PvE since the only useful skill in that line is Doylak's Signet (please don't flame I know some of you use other skills but most tanks only use Doylak's Signet from the strength line) compared to half a dozen decent strength skills commonly used in PvP.
I could see this change being justified from a PvE perspective.

imkey · Jun 14, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

What makes strength good (or bad) isn't really the armor penetration, but the awesome skills in the attribute. I can see how strength can be weaker in PvE since the only useful skill in that line is Doylak's Signet (please don't flame I know some of you use other skills but most tanks only use Doylak's Signet from the strength line) compared to half a dozen decent strength skills commonly used in PvP.
I could see this change being justified from a PvE perspective.

I think we're on a different wavelength? I am talking about adding extra armor points with increasing strength not extra armor penetration to counter the effects of the armor stack nerf for warriors.
Even though there are some nice skills in strength line, the attribute itself could use a small buff. This would solve two issues (the slightly weak primary attribute and the armor stacking nerf).

upier · Jun 14, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

"Omg it makes PvE harder! Make it only affect PvP!" (By harder I mean you can no longer press two or three buttons which will reduce all damage by 80%).
I hate this mentality, makes me wonder why I play such a scrub friendly game.

Insane armour buffs can and DO promote a different style of play.
They reward players who will go that way - and they require some thought to be put into different player- and team-builds.
What is wrong with that?
What's wrong with having options?
ESPECIALLY in pve? Where the other side doesn't complain and the main focus is for the player to HAVE FUN!
You know - one of the options in pve is to NOT run it also.

And its really bad when we go from "one can decide not to run it" to "you can't run it".

Lagg · Jun 14, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox Reeveheart

I read this and this I am split from this.

definitely one half of me is screaming bloody murder because I love my earth ele and his armor bonus stacking.

The other wants to see warriors STOP BEING TANKS and start being melee damage dealers q.q I havent seen one in so long! Infact I don't remember warriors being used for damage on any build in a few months when concerning pve... if it was pve you tanked, nothing else. Or possibly you ran. Maybe Strength will finally be a usable attribute. Maybe more hammer warriors will start popping up.

Holy stereotype Batman. Not all Warriors are Mending choobs. (some of us are uber godly pro Mending choobs)

Warriors have ALWAYS had the highest single-target DPS. There's no reason you can't be a damage dealer and be a tank at the same time.

You want to see more Hammer Warriors outside of PvP? Then by all means don't get rid of the WY! + Dolly Sig combo, used to offset the lack of a shield.

Warriors need high survivability. It's the very essence of the class!

Heck, I could ask those Earth Eles to STOP BEING TANKS.

To sum things up: leave us with options.

The option to have a Warrior tank. The option to have an Earth Ele tank. You name it.

As someone else pointed out, nerfing the Armor stack so late in the game's lifetime is yet another way to alienate the long-time and most loyal playerbase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by imkey

just add 1 additional armor(against physical and elemental) for every point put into Strength.

Fixes the weak strength attribute and lets warriors be the best tanks.

The sanest solution.

Just like they altered Spawning Power's effect on Weapon Spells.

If 15 Strength adds a base +20 AL to Warriors, I'll start getting over the +25 AL armor stack cap.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 14, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by imkey

just add 1 additional armor(against physical and elemental) for every point put into Strength.

Fixes the weak strength attribute and lets warriors be the best tanks.

Warriors arnt always and only Tanks and Warriors arnt the only Profession that can Tank

Your idea is Way OTT, Warriors already have the highest base armour of any profession, they also have a large number of AL boosting skills and Blocking skills/stances, to add that would nto only make them a big problem in PVP but would also make enemy ones in PvE A Massivie problem, eg. Any Warrior u face over lvl 20 would have atleast 20 extra armour ontop of there already massive armour.

imkey · Jun 14, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Hi thanks for feedback,

When I said tank, I mean the ability to soak up dmg. Warriors are suppose to be able to take a lot of dmg...more so than other profs.
Just how many AL boosting skills and blocking skills/stances do you expect warriors to carry around and still be effective? Remember, AL boost from multiple skills will only stack up to 25max soon. In most PVE and almost all PVP, the majority of their bar is offensive.

At lvl 20, the warrior has at least 9 pts into this weapon mastery... probably 12+runes+helm. and more frequently than not, a good deal into tactics just for the efficient heal sig. What does that leave? Enough for a moderate strength primary or ... perhaps pts in the secondary profession's branch for the utility skills?

Even at strength = 12+1 which is the most I see warriors investing into it, it only adds 13 additional AL. I don't see how this is very imba.

Also remember, there are a lot of armor ignoring dmg, life steal, hex, and conditions which bypass the armor entirely. There are plenty of warrior hate skills which bypass their armor.

Warriors over lvl20 only exist in pve mobs...and there are plenty of ways to kill them no matter what armor level they have.

I hope that clears up any confusion and better illustrates my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Warriors arnt always and only Tanks and Warriors arnt the only Profession that can Tank

Your idea is Way OTT, Warriors already have the highest base armour of any profession, they also have a large number of AL boosting skills and Blocking skills/stances, to add that would nto only make them a big problem in PVP but would also make enemy ones in PvE A Massivie problem, eg. Any Warrior u face over lvl 20 would have atleast 20 extra armour ontop of there already massive armour.